Legislature(2007 - 2008)BELTZ 211
01/31/2008 09:00 AM Senate STATE AFFAIRS
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB37 | |
| SB201 | |
| SB215 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | HB 37 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | SB 201 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | SB 215 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
SB 201-PUBLIC FINANCE WEBSITE
SENATOR MCGUIRE announced the consideration of SB 201.
SENATOR BILL WIELECHOWSKI, Alaska State Legislature, said the
intent of SB 201, the Alaska Open Government Act, is to create a
free, searchable website that provides Alaskans with easy access
to detailed and comprehensive information on state spending. It
will encourage better understanding of state operations
and, ultimately, reduce waste and ensure that funding is
directed to the state's most important needs. He read a quote
from Thomas Jefferson: "We might hope to see the finances of the
union as clear and intelligible as a merchant's book so that
every member of Congress and every man of any mind in the union
should be able to comprehend them to investigate abuses and
consequently to control them."
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said these types of websites are emerging
all over the country. The Federal Funding Accountability and
Transparency Act of 2006 called for creation of a searchable
website. It was introduced by a bipartisan team of four Senators
including Senators John McCain and Barack Obama. In 2007, five
states passed legislation mandating online databases with
detailed information on state expenditures. They include Kansas,
Texas, Oklahoma, Minnesota, and Hawaii. There are 15 states that
are considering it. There seems to be a national consensus
brewing, which is being supported from all sides, from Ralph
Nadar to Grover Norquist.
9:27:41 AM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said he first heard about this idea at a
National Conference of State Legislatures. The governor has
embraced it too and has taken strides to get a system on line.
He is working with the administration, and there is a zero
fiscal note. It should be in statute so that the legislature has
some control over what can be searchable. It will also signal to
the public that the legislature supports it.
SENATOR BUNDE said it will give citizens information and make it
easy to get involved. He questioned the zero fiscal note.
9:29:43 AM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said Grover Norquist says it is being done
in other states for nominal amounts of money. The administration
will do it with an Excel spreadsheet, and it will involve time.
Some money was budgeted for new software last year.
SENATOR BUNDE noted that in Oklahoma it was predicted to cost
$300,000, but it was only $8,000. If there is to be
transparency, even $8,000 needs to be shown.
SENATOR FRENCH said this is an idea he has had. One of his
constituents wants to know expenditures right down to a light
bulb. This is the way the government ought to work. There is no
reason a person should have to drive somewhere to find this
information when the internet can provide it.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said this information is out there, so it
is a matter of putting in a searchable database.
9:32:08 AM
SENATOR STEVENS said the governor is already doing this and it
is funded. He asked what the legislature can add.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said this is important and the legislature
is the body that crafts a budget. This governor is open to it,
but further governors may not be. It also gives this body a say
in what information will be accessible.
CHAIR MCGUIRE said it might give the legislature an opportunity
to look at what types of things should not be in the database,
like social security numbers. She asked about salaries.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said this plan does not include salaries or
state or federal assistance payments.
SENATOR BUNDE suggested showing the total spent on welfare.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said absolutely, but it will not list each
individual payment.
9:35:24 AM
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked about other exclusions.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said that is really it. The bill defines
expenditure as something greater than $10,000. He is open to
lowering it to $1,000. "Do you want to list every $0.99
purchase?" He read the language: Expenditure does not include
the transfer of money between state agencies, payment to state
employees or retirees, or payment of state or federal assistance
to an individual.
9:36:43 AM
SENATOR FRENCH suggested discussing excluded expenditures, and
he asked about "a contract, a buy, purchase and things along
those lines."
SENATOR BUNDE asked about line 31, regarding payment to state
employees. He asked if it meant individual employees.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said he has looked at other websites and
there is a pie chart where labor costs are included, but naming
specific employees might not be added even though that
information can be found elsewhere.
9:38:19 AM
SENATOR BUNDE asked if salaries would be in categories.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said that is his intention.
CHAIR MCGUIRE suggested including "individual payments to state
employees or retires" as part of the exclusions.
SENATOR BUNDE said $10,000 sounds significant.
9:39:30 AM
JOHN BINKLEY, Former Alaska State Senator, applauded the senator
and governor for working on this. Such access will give trust to
people for the government. There are details that will be
involved, and it will be a learning process. There will be
things that can't be seen now. In codifying it, don't lock
something in that would preclude doing something beneficial in
constructing the website. He suggested that the legislature
might want to pass a bill now and look at the nuances later.
9:42:07 AM
CHAIR MCGUIRE said the bill will be held over to continue the
communications.
SENATOR BUNDE said to be cautious on both sides. The government
should not inundate the citizen with so much information that
there is no clarity.
MR. BINKLEY said it depends on the data arrangement. If it is
accessible there is no harm in allowing people to find the
smallest amounts. When he worked at the Alaska Railroad,
everything was made accessible, and links allowed anyone to
easily go from a broad view to the lowest level of expenditures.
9:44:43 AM
SENATOR BUNDE asked if there has been any hacking.
MR. BINKLEY said not in his experience.
SENATOR FRENCH noted that the committee leans toward not
including salaries. The Alaska Budget Report lists state
salaries. He asked if other states include salaries in their
websites. There are members of the public interested,
specifically, in that expense, so it is worth thinking about.
9:46:14 AM
STEVE CLEARY, Executive Director, Alaska Public Interest
Research Group (AKPIRG), Anchorage, said AKPIRG's mission is
protecting consumers and advocating responsible government. SB
201 is a great idea and should help government and citizens.
More people should be involved in civic affairs, and allowing
them to search where state money is going will engage them more.
He hopes it will be used to heap praise on the legislature, but
it will also allow criticism. It will make government more
efficient. Other states are doing it, and the federal government
has begun to do the same. He suggested asking other states to
help with the questions that have been raised.
9:48:35 AM
SENATOR BUNDE said this will likely not change the view that
excess state spending is just money that goes to someone else.
He asked about listing individual salaries.
MR. CLEARY said salaries should be listed by job, not by person.
Those salaries would be listed in an aggregate or as a range,
such as are on the state website now.
9:49:59 AM
CHAIR MCGUIRE said that is an excellent idea.
MEAD TREADWELL, Alaskans for Tax Reform, Anchorage, said he is
pleased to see this legislation and has drafted something
similar as a voter initiative. He said he met Grover Norquist
when tearing down the Berlin wall. Communist countries rely on
secrecy to do bad things to people. Open government promotes
freedom. He said he did a program to report to Alaskans on the
management of commonly owned assets and taxes, and that
information was difficult to get. Some states have a commission
to update the process, but it is a continuing cost. He said an
annual report could be required, or the governor could create an
annual executive order to update the information. "Some kind of
process in the bill to continually improve this window, I think,
would be something the committee might want to consider."
9:53:33 AM
MR. TREADWELL noted that the criminal database has restrictions,
and campaign databases can't be used for contribution
solicitations. The information should be transparent, but it
should be protected from database mining to create mailing
lists. When he was a state official his salary was public. It
doesn't hurt to have a public official's salary available.
Anything that is "FOIable" [able to be attained through the
Freedom of Information Act] should be on the website.
9:55:20 AM
SENATOR BUNDE asked about welfare recipients.
MR. TREADWELL said he doesn't know how available that
information is now. "I think that's the type of thing that could
be shielded under privacy." Likewise, medical assistance should
be private. The legislation should have a shielding process or a
means to petition for privacy.
9:56:34 AM
KIM GARNERO, Director, Division of Finance, Department of
Administration, said her division will build the website; "in
fact we already are building it." The current accounting system
is very old and needs to be replaced. The legislature has
appropriated money for it. The reporting system is called the
Alaska Data Enterprise Reporting System (ALDER) and will allow
the web access. ALDER is building the foundation for converting
the legacy data, and it will have the benefit of allowing
"reporting such as this." The system is in field test with 400
users. It will be shown to stakeholders at 11 a.m. today. All
state expenditures over $1,000 will be shown. It will be sorted
by department and by account code. Increment II of ALDER will
put the payroll data into it. "At that point we would be able to
do some of the reporting you guys have been talking about - how
much do state troopers cost - how much does a state trooper cost
- that sort of thing." That is not available now, but she
expects it by August. Posting any confidential information needs
to be prevented. ALDER I excludes all payments to beneficiaries
of any kind, all confidential warrants, and any data that the
agencies deem confidential.
9:59:35 AM
MS. GARNERO said there could be over-exclusions initially. The
Department of Law will do a confidentiality analysis. There are
many payments, including foster care and heating assistance, and
none of that will be available until after the analysis.
SENATOR BUNDE assumed the information will be reported in
general, just not to the individual.
MS. GARNERO said not in version I.
CHAIR MCGUIRE said that is a good idea to put it in categories.
SENATOR STEVENS asked if a difference will be drawn between
employees and assistance beneficiaries.
MS. GARNERO said no payroll warrants will be posted, but if a
state employee has received a travel reimbursement of over
$1,000, that will show up. But there will be no salaries,
permanent fund dividends, or retirement checks.
10:01:25 AM
SENATOR FRENCH asked if a citizen will be able to figure out
what state troopers, for example, get paid because the total
salaries and total employees will be posted. "Would you have to
do the division to figure out the annual salary?"
MS. GARNERO said she has not anticipated posting salary
information - it is open for discussion.
SENATOR FRENCH asked if that information is available now.
MS. GARNERO said elements that make up gross pay for state
employees are considered public information, but net pay is
considered confidential under Title 39.
SENATOR FRENCH asked if a person can find out "Joe Smith's"
gross salary.
10:03:05 AM
MS. GARNERO said she understands that a person can do that
through the Division of Personnel.
SENATOR STEVENS asked Ms. Garnero if it makes sense to have a
bi-annual report from her office considering things to add or
remove from the database.
MS. GARNERO said she hasn't thought about a report, but she
envisioned an ongoing governance group to assist in determining
future enhancements.
10:04:17 AM
SENATOR BUNDE said the goal is for more confidence in the
government and unintended consequences need to be watched for.
If large categories are unreported, someone will see the gap and
wonder what is being hidden. He noted that the department is
changing its computer software system anyway. He was told that
the auditors of corporate income tax will need tens of millions
of dollars in new software to do a good job.
MS. GARNERO said ALDER is being built from a $20 million
previous appropriation. She anticipates that they will also do a
time and attendance system which will act as a front end to the
existing payroll system. Last year the legislature appropriated
$41 million to start further replacement efforts, "and there's
going to be a lot more necessary before it's done."
GROVER NORQUIST, President, Americans for Tax Reform, Washington
D.C., said his group has been working with governments to enact
legislation like SB 201. The federal government has passed a
similar law. Five states have "moved very far on this." Missouri
did it by executive order without appropriating a penny -- it
used existing staff and resources. There have been two million
unique visitors to the website. Texas has already saved millions
of dollars. Every singe check is searchable within two days. It
is good for citizens and the government. Texas saved $75,000
just on toner by seeing what each department was spending and
then consolidating that. Florida and Ohio will require the
state, local governments, and schools to do the same. If a
school district in Texas can't show that a certain percentage of
money isn't spent in the class room, the actual check register
must be on the web. Now every parent can see every check written
by the school district. It stops all types of abuses.
10:10:03 AM
MR. NORQUIST said this bill is exciting. He recommends the
$10,000 threshold be eliminated. "Otherwise you'll end up with a
lot of $9,000 checks being written." He said his website shows
the status of all such systems in the country. Experienced
states are willing to help other states.
10:12:09 AM
CHAIR MCGUIRE said SB 201 will be held over.
SENATOR STEVENS said he will want to discuss the inclusion of
local governments and school districts at the next meeting.
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